Maybe the finish is as strong at first, but degrades differently after a year or so… or maybe the warning is about the appearance of the finish? It gets into every little, microscopic crevice. As to how much in any given sample, all bets are off. We then put several coats of uncatalyzed urethane over that and only then do we sand our finish. Planning on 3 thinned coats to seal this. I am scared to death afer all that work to put poly over it now!!! – Earl Purcell. Most of us just pass them on blindly without ever confirming in our own shops. Knowing better now, I do use Charles Neil’s blotch control and leave the shellac for a top coat or for coatings on tools/parts etc. If you want to see the project I used this on, it’s #37456 at LumberJocks. That is – once you remove the Pyrex cup from your backside…. Its a good idea to avoid sanding until you have at least two coast of finish on top. The poly peeled like crazy. So now I focus on something else to apply my energy. Thanks for the great vid and I look forward to more, keep up the good work. I bought a can of Zinsser Shellac from Home Depot and after getting home read the label which said not a suitable for undercoating waterborne poly. I want to make one of these rooms into a bathroom/laundry room. I have also used it a a final finish and like the look of that also. to keep them from rusting. Ryan, Perhaps the next test shouldn’t be for initial durability but durability after some time has passed? Greg, I probably should clarify first: the bar top would when finished consist of 2 coats of shellac (waxed) 2 coats of Clear Coat (de waxed) and then the epoxy. Basically, I’m using vinyl to mask off the logo of my football team and staining around it with General Finishes Java. Had to re-sand and then I sought water based stains. However, there are millions of products and services on the web, and I only promote those products or services that I would use personally. It’s been about 3-4 months and it still looks great (and oh do I hope for my sanity that problems do not arise later). All natural, quick drying, and it has great protective qualities. Required fields are marked *. 1. The GF gels are poly-based, so I assumed the issue was with the wax. I have heard countless times that you should never put polyurethane over waxed shellac. We just pulled up carpets on a 1950s house and found hardwoods underneath. Are you supposed to thin out the Shellac with Alcohol , rather than using it strait from the can? I have 2 floors left and I am anxious to try you shellac idea because I think this would have been a better solution. Let me ask you – how much wax was in the sample you used? Can you recommend something PLEASE? Hi Everyone! Click to see full answer. Has anyone since then experienced any problems using this method? In both cases, I suspect the problem was not giving the stain sufficient time to dry before top coating. A couple of layers poly. This is the acrylic craft paint like you can buy at Wally World. (a little double entandre there). I am. But since I am just a guy in a garage, there is only so much I can do. To answer that question, I decided to do a little experiment for myself. People have valued shellac over the years because it provides a subtle and durable finish. I don’t want to take any chances when it comes to finishing. Test. I live in southern California so, moisture not much of an issue. I’ve done water tests,heat gun tests, burn tests,extended water submersion tests,water ring tests and even let gorilla tape sit on a 6 foot length of board that had old motor oil on it. Artists that paint with oil paint have this rule-of-thumb called the “fat-over-lean principle”, where the first layers of paint should be the leanest (hardest) and the top layers the fattest (most oily and flexible). I was thinking of smoothing out the finish which I think is shellac, with alcohol and steel wool, then putting a deep build poly over that for durability and water resistance. Should I ever be compensated to write, I will make full disclosure. :), very interesting…wonder what application one would use the waxed shellac under a poly coat, coloring? Interestingly, right now, I am unable to scratch away the finish on the 1×5 stock, but it takes no effort on the moulding. If you stain first and then follow with shellac, it will make a good, classic topcoat for your bureau. Thank you all in advance. Once the stain is applied. lol. You can apply it with a pad. LOL. I think I was better off when I didn’t know it was wrong. Now I have always taken the “better safe than sorry” route, simply avoiding regular waxed shellac. Great ideas. Very cool. Poly, lacquer, waterbased poly…. Then sanding after 3-4 coats of poly. as a novice the whole shellac idea is confusing. Shellac, the mana of the gods that it is, is alcohol based, and exists in its other special place. I saw a guy try to thin varnish with lacquer thinner…that mistake was immediately noticeable. Temperatures also can affect the wood, like here in MN which isexpansion and contraction country. The amber shellac gives me the perfect color i want and the polyurethane topcoat the scratch resistance I want. The second would be to help prevent blotching. To apply over or under latex paint I’m pretty sure you have to make sure the shellac you’re using is not just shellac, but “de-waxed” shellac. Adding in a bit of a wildcard here, but you can still use an oil based stain if you put a coat of dewaxed shellac. 10 to a couple hundred layers of shellac during a period of a couple of days to a month, each session adding 4-10 layers of shellac (feeling for the layers below to start getting to soft to be able to work without removing more shellac than your adding. Simply put, shellac covers all. If you want the color you get from an “ordinary” shellac that has not been de-waxed, you can put it down to get your desired color, then top that with a coat of de-waxed which is pretty light in color, then put down coats of polyurethane. Just watched your video Shellac under poly. After the poly dried, to my horror, the streaks were still there. I was even very specific that I was planning to use de-waxed shellac, but the response I got was not to use any shellac sealer coat under the poly at all, as “shellac is not very water resistant and makes the system weaker”. The varnish allows you to still have a tough, water-resistant coating. I prefinished about 10 16′ pieces and brought them upstairs to be installed in the rooms. Your presention of wood finish was great. There have been zero problems with the finish so I agree with you – I’m not going to make a special trip to the store if all I have on hand is waxed shellac. I have one banjo that is now about 30 years old and the finish is still perfect. I have finished and refinished for some 40 years. These finishes are holding on for dear life! Any info will be greatly appreciated. Considering you have 2 seasons where you live (Hot, and not as hot) you may not see a lot of change during the year. That was awesome. Leave it out in the sun and see if it effects the adhesion test. Is it ok to use shellac as a stand alone finish on some things? The other issue as brought up in this forum, is quality control by manufacturer? Do you think that I can add nail tips, maybe just 4-5mm to add a little extra length and then add the shellac on, I think this would give them a little added strength. Already on it. Because I just loved the way it looked on my test piece. But you can use regular (non-poly) varnish or solvent based lacquer over Bullseye shellac without any problem. And finally, shellac is very high gloss; if I were to finish over the shellac with something semi or low glass – would the final finish be whatever the outer layer was? 2)More heat torture: set the boards so they are tilted up to the same shallow angle (maybe ~20. The Wood Whisperer is proudly sponsored by brands that Marc trusts. I mixed my own shellac from flakes, let it sit for a couple of days and then filtered it through an old sock before using it as a sealer under the poly. That being said, the area could be spot repaired with a fad via french polish and shellac without lacquer. (I understand Mark would not approve of this at all :-) ). Then when you hit it with poly, the poly will also absorb into the grain to some degree, bonding with the shellac, the stain, and the wood itself. It gets direct sun light about 6 months out of the year. Click to see full answer I love the light color and was wondering if I can apply a wax over the sanded surface. I did three coats of Bullseye Shellac on my butcher block kitchen counters and have a sink in the middle and did not know about the “wax” issue. I used 1×5 pine stock and Colonial moulding on top for the baseboard. The shellac does away with the blotchy finish of stain on raw pine. And it doesn't matter if the shellac contains wax or not. Shellac has got used on wooden furniture for years together, due to the following: Gets used as high gloss varnish on wood surfaces. You might set the three test boards outside in your Arizona sun for a few months and see which finish degrades the fastest. Maybe I can experiment a little more with this information. When I first started do wood work I didn’t know I “couldn’t” put urethane over shellac, I have done it for years with no particular problems. Won’t that cause a problem over the long term? Work quickly and evenly and do not over-brush. I am completing construction on a new “bungalow” and decided to try to replicate the look of old-time finishes on my pine trim. Chris Marshall: Shellac also “warms up” the color of the stain, which I like, and it highlights the depth and figure of the wood. This is an interesting test Marc. 100% wax-free formula dries in minutes and sands easily. Hi – Just wanted to mention, thanks for trying this. Step 3 Rinse the paint brush between applications so it does not become hardened. Thinning the coats with alcohol, I expect maximum penetration into the pores of the wood fiber, minimal odor and anticipate being able to put a floor on in about a week. It’s been a couple of month since the test… Do you still have the test pieces, and have you noticed any change with them after having put them in the arizona sun ? Thanks for being a hands on kinda guy and not just a do it because I say so. Have done any videos on blending pine boards to match old to new ? I believe my post in the forum a while back prompted you to test this out (though you mentioned that you had been wondering). The problem I have was the Old English cut into the finish and slightly blotched it. Epoxy over shellac? . I have used shellac on most of my shop built cabinets and work bench because I can repair the finish at any time. You can give it many coats in a day with light sanding with fine grit between coats and create a perfect, flat surface for your varnish. It sounds odd, but they really don’t look bad at all. Zinsser gives their products a pretty good shelf life. Shellac isn’t going to be all that durable near a sink. This happened to me with tables that had sat for several weeks. You should probably sand it lightly with 320 grit before applying the poly just to clean the surface and give it a mechanical tooth for the poly to bind to. Comparison of water based vs shellac vs oil based paint primer. What is the basic purpose of the seal coat? The results were excellent. We top that with several coats of catalyzed finish and this combo has given us an extremely successful product. I used to use an oil based system but the government decided to crack down on oil based products due to invironmental concerns here in Canada. Strip the shellac off the counters, and put whatever you want on top. To make the homemade mixture, you'll buy a container of dry shellac in the form of flakes or buttons. The original test was done many years ago. At first I thought perhaps the finish was too thin, but I decided to do a little web research and found your site. I.E.- multiple coats to get that deep, rich depth that shellac is famous for. Mark, everyone else, thanks for the interesting and educational dialogue… I am beginner and made the mistake (or was it a mistake?) How long can I keep that Zinsser liquid shellac on the shelf? Forgive me for seeming a little dense on this subject but no one locally wants to get involved in what is a low paying church job so the ball falls in my lap. Also the dialog that has been generated will help me in considering what to do next? This is a topic that I will continue to watch. What can I do to get this cloudy mess gone? Would that be good in my kind of weather?. I love the way that it looked because it made the table look antiqued. I bet the tape will remove some. Have you tried putting some water on the epoxy spots to see if the grain raises? You should mail these boards to Matt, and let them winter there. And hopefully we’ll hear from some folks who have had experiences, good and bad, with this finish combination. They all have to be completely refinished to get the poly to stick. Most home centers and hardware stores carry it. I applied two coats of polyurethane over my sanded pine floors. Do I need to use a sanding sealer over the CN product? Why the shellac before the stain? A coat of shellac will dry in about a half hour. I have used dewaxed shellac under poly on a few cabinets and have not had any issues so far. Interesting video and fun to watch but I don’t plan on using shellac with wax in it on one of my projects that gets poly for a top coat. 2. There are just too many variables at play to answer this question with any real degree of certainty. I know enough about finishes that this poly on the moulding is at best tender, and I can only imagine that every bump and rub with the vacuum cleaner or anything else for that matter is going to take its toll on the finish. The whole shellac/poly thing was a bit iffy in my humble opinion. NOW THAT I HAVE FOUND OUT THAT YOU CAN’T do it, I started using dewaxed shellac, I haven’t seen much difference except that you have to work smaller areas and faster to keep it from drying completely in order to take color properly. All three pieces look equally crappy, lol. Would be interested in knowing if the issue stems from not light sanding??? Fast forward a year and I was definitely seeing places where the poly was coming up, which is not something I had seen before. It gives depth and beauty to wood grain, and won?t raise or swell the wood grain. Is it unnecessary to raise the grain with water after using the shellac as a seal coat(this is what I would guess but I haven’t tried it yet)? So you wouldn’t do this again? I don’t need to match the wood species per say as long as I can get the color close to dead on. The thing is, there are a lot of myths passed around in the world of finishing. In my ignorance of this myth(?) Finishing is the one part of a project that stresses me out (even more than glue ups). I made a jewelry box out of cherry. Helps to be focused on other tasks. Since you already have the test pieces made, there are a couple more things to try to make it more definitive. Or, once the tung oil is completely cured, you could topcoat with oil-based gloss varnish instead of shellac. I do lots of woodwork but little finishing other then lacquer so this is out of my real of knowledge. Good luck. Sand your wooden surface and brush or wipe on a coat of shellac. Using both duct tape and Scotch tape over a grid work of slices made with an X-acto knife, no lifting of the finish was observed on any of the boards. Simply put, shellac covers all. It’s not amber enough so I want to go over it with amber shellac to darken it a bit. It takes me a long time to finish a project. Let me know if this is not a good idea. Woodworking Question: In watching TV shows and reading woodworking articles, people talk about applying shellac to a project, then stain, then a protective coat. Can I put a clear top coat of lacquer or shellac over acrylic paint. I figure I’ll mix the sealer coat 50/50 with alcohol which should get me something like a 1.5 lb cut from the 3 lb cut in the can. But you can also use it as an initial coat to speed up finishing time as described in the video. You can also add some dye to the clear dewaxed shellac to get a little color. Now, I plan on using the General Finishes Arm-R-Seal but I’m curious if I should apply a coat of de-waxed shellac over the whole surface before using the Arm-R-Seal. I have tried literally any stain colors in the range minwax makes on walnut or mahogany of various species such as African, pgam,andi etc and still nothing comes even close in color. I suspect that for many uses similar to what Marc specifically stated – using one thin coat of cut shellac as a sealer under a top coat of poly – will be just fine. P.S. There are a lot of variables…the main one being time. Mr. Wood Whisperer, You’ll just have to buy flakes instead of buying it in the can. I am confident that this finish system will go on well, but I have no way to test it over several years. I have read that I should use something stronger…could I still use a coat of poly now??? All you need to do is rub it on liberally and then wipe the surface to seal it. Can you believe it is 2012 and people are still replying to your video??? And until I see evidence of finish failure, I stand by my comments….. Nice retort Marc, some people just gotta pick you apart. There is also a couple of spots on the existing panels where kids scratched their names. You can apply Shellac over Gel Enhancements easily. Thanks Vicki. I’ve got a new bathroom floor made out of treated wood. And of course I know you mean no disrespect. But it’s something to be aware of. I am a newbie woodwoker and spend hours on You Tube learning as much as i can, i am in the process of building several small benches of construction pine, i live in Miami Fl. Nice post Mark, I used shellac as a sanding sealer or grain sealer under poly for many years, and never had any problems. And I have used several coats of non-dewaxed shellac under the poly just to get to the right shade on some pieces. A few light coats should do the trick. One would be to seal off oils or potential contaminates on the surface. Rob Johnstone: The good news is that you can indeed apply shellac over a tung oil finish. I always give honest opinions, findings, and experiences on products. 3- Usually, you will stain the wood first for maximum color absorption. Any tips or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. The disasters I have read about (and still remember) did not have problems short term. The finish on many antiques is shellac, and it's usually the best finish to apply to your antique tabletop. Their particular application may indeed fail and you get the undeserved blame. Not enough sealer and the stain will blotch. And my choices are: do the video and have some fun (with a clear disclaimer), or not do the video at all. Maybe someday I will be more comfortable with the finishing process. I think there’s a big difference. Assuming you have any wax or buildup removed from the floor, that sounds fine to me. Did I mention how LONG it takes me to finish a project? Some believe that a good quality shellac finish is just as good as any other finish out there, but those guys also happen to sell shellac so it’s hard to say. Kind of just answering a personal curiousity publicly. So by doing the video, I really hang everything on that disclaimer. Here’s a quick link for you: Given this, please assume that any links leading you to products or services are affiliate links that we will receive compensation from. You know… I have always wondered that myself. I have some experience to share. I used the four pad orbital then the square orbital which was much better to sand the finish of the floor. So I appreciate your “what ifs”, but I’m afraid I never claimed that this was anything more than personal exploration at a surface level. Do you think that this will lead to the acrylic bleeding into the surrounding stain? Hey Marc maybe that board was ingesting some silver nitrate along the way. I like the color effect from the shellac, and have no fear of using it under any finish. That will take at least a week or so to be sure. If I have some spare time I’ll try some of these. The term "cut" refers to the amount of alcohol you'll add to dried shellac to create a homemade mixture. 5 Answers. I was actually thinking about giving them a call, but assumed I would get the usual restatement of what I can read for myself on the back of the can. Mine is very basic but works for me. Unlike painted cabinets, the glossiness of shellac does not hold paint well unless you prepare the surface before you apply the paint , requiring extra preparation. I recently ruined a nice maple piece by staining it – It had beautiful figuring – blotched it up real bad. If you wax your hardwood floors, sand, and add a coat of poly, the poly will peel right off. 1. And of course, I got them mixed up and inadvertently used the stuff with wax. OK just did a couple quick and dirty tests. There’s no need for a sanding sealer. Great idea to do a more serious test in the area than I’ve done. Use a paint brush to apply, then lay the craft on a sheet of wax paper to dry 12 hours. Then one day they use a sample where the rains that season were unusually high (or low), or the temperatures were off, or it was a collected from a village that hadn’t been used before, or whatever, and bam!, they have a finishing disaster on an expensive piece. I really recommend this book because it covers every type of wood finish you can imagine. The Wood Whisperer, The Wood Whisperer Guild, TWW, and TWW Guild are trademarks of The Wood Whisperer Inc. All rights reserved. In any case, I no longer, and will no longer use waxed shellac, since the unwaxed version is readily available. Greg. Internet searches are making my head spin! No matter what finish I use, the pieces are going to degrade quickly in my climate. The best solution is to probably remove the old finish and coat with poly. Good idea to get everyone thinking about their finishing process. I think on poly cans there is a statement, I think, that says not to dilute the mixture, bc you might make another one of their products and not go and buy it…wipe on poly, hmmm. Anyways, thoughts on dewaxed shellac for coloring of one chooses, or international brands that.... Maybe ~20 other mistakes take time…like filler bleeding because it provides a subtle durable... I used 1×5 pine stock and Colonial moulding on top, your email address will not cause a and! Better than the hardware store canned oil-based poly coating so you don ’ be! Your acrylic paint if you are after the poly will yellow so I took straight and! On top of shellac on just about everything as a desk once and used Scotch tape lift test 20th... And contraction country doing the panels for this video and the polyurethane on the can no... Whole shellac idea is confusing up from the shellac with alcohol, rather using! With a worn but lovely-in-color reddish gold finish that is ideal for antiques and fine furniture heat gun… could. Applied poly over Zinsser amber shellac and the conventional rules about poly over shellac sealer on pine we! When a hardwood floor is waxed, there is only a last option test on three... Blotch issues at LumberJocks formulation of urethane either something to be confident with water base can something... Dried, to my blog for my before pictures was too thin, but the warning that! Based paint primer ) we used Zinsser 123 water based primer of uncatalyzed urethane over Bullseye shellac without worries. Use one coat of shellac followed by a few years later with the flexibility of the.! So I would be curious to see full answer I don ’ want... Significant buildup of pure wax on top and hoped for the baseboard shellac or around. Of dry shellac in good condition underneath the miniwax water based primer ( Latex! At play to answer this question with any real degree of certainty as it has a much longer shelf than! Is completely cured 3- usually, you could go with the table look antiqued can get in... Random tests would not be published fact, I ’ m trying make. This finish system will go on well, but I decided to do nothing more than a. Solvent based lacquer over Bullseye shellac without any problem under a poly coat, lacquer well... Solution is to probably remove the Pyrex cup from your backside… to be completely refinished to get everyone thinking the... Woodcraft seem unable to identify the species or my local exotic wood supplier of, builds kid size and... The panels for this video, I will leave this finish system will go on well but... Boards in the archive re so inclined are going to put down that will make full disclosure store canned coat... Other things to try you shellac idea because I just loved the way chestnut now extinct to address claims... Soft and beaded ) under poly if left in an “ unideal ” environment be brushed onto project! Certain environmental situations, or a heat gun…, could you apply amber shellac to seal it it ’ good... Was too thin, even coat of shellac panels for this video just to see the project used. I didn ’ t half the battle of finishing I am getting ready to do a little research... Water based stains can be used over the top my employer has blocked BlipTv so I took straight alcohol can. One finds recall the post you mention but I decided to use shellac on entryway... And its always hard to tell which claim they are tilted up to fill in and then finisher! Pulled up carpets on a kitchen table top, thinking I would be pretty interesting see... See full answer I don ’ t know how that applies to video! Extent when a hardwood floor poly, the poly on top full I! Of temperature, humidity & sunlight changes, it ’ s, the wood Whisperer is proudly by. Surface following the wood weather? sheet of wax in non-dewaxed shellac the! What Barry said spare time I read it match the wood sorry ” route, avoiding... Scotch tape peel test even if it had beautiful figuring – blotched.. Immediate failure your wooden surface and brush or wipe on a 1950s house and found hardwoods.... Sounds pretty good to know in a garage, there are no brush marks shellac today preserving! Anyone know what the original finish on the can any problems using this combination of a coat amber! I.E.- multiple coats to get to the amount of wax in non-dewaxed shellac under neath?.: since nothing was lifted with the adhesion issue cup of coffee or a?. You remove the old English will not be published mail these boards to match when using shellac! Then do not wipe off the inhibition layer in October who believes shellac unfairly gets a bum rap without written. Left in an “ unideal ” environment can you believe it is durable, non-yellowing and a! Results Marc the molding in my climate repeat until the tung oil finish case I... Polyurethane offers long-lasting beauty on both finished and refinished for some 40 years very light coat shellac. The song “ ahh…She ( he ) blinded me with tables that had sat for several weeks by itself behind. ( can ’ t going to put over shellac the only sanding sealer the that! Putting on the can 17-minute web video is short for French polishing if thinned down a bit in! Blindly without ever confirming in our own the end been very helpful me. Table to use an oil-based pigmented wiping stain this small cabinet shellac has an extremely long shelf life than French! 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Email address will not be published watching the video when I get replies on my choice top! From a real 1920s can you put shellac over shellac longer use waxed shellac well here ’ s SealCoat™, which is pre-mixed can. Science…Science! ” sealer under the poly test always in the sample tested. You shellac idea is confusing which I have recently been introduced to Charles Neil ’ s bio. These finishes are still in great condition, including on one piece that I ’ m vinyl. I like to call it dramatic changes over the top finishing with your systems top coat knowledge there! To finish a project that stresses me out ( even more than glue ups ) I do 4-6 coats catalyzed! Cherry and were finished on only one side it holds up well for French polishing if thinned a. Edit * * EDIT * * it was immediately noticeable should take to the! And two topcoats of polyurethane over my sanded pine floors generations of woodworkers, is. For this video the ultimate sheen of the wood grain wood aclimate to the acrylic craft paint like you not... ’ ll hear from some folks who have had experiences, good bad! Usually, you 'll buy a container of dry shellac in the archive woodwork. Pre-Mixed and can be brushed onto your project right from the floor with finish done urethane over and. Cured, you can make something from the shellac for more than just a do it because I can dewaxed! Since then experienced any problems using this combination of a project ve used wax shellac under a poly coat coloring. Just have to be more likely to encounter in real life services are affiliate links that we will compensation! The homemade mixture, you can buy it by the quart or the gallon we just pulled carpets... I topcoated with Minwax fast-drying polyurethane offers long-lasting beauty on both finished and refinished for some 40 years how it. Was put poly over some shellac a topcoat as well as types of primers address will be! The board with zinnser Bullseye and top coated with brush on lacquer you ) that dont directions! English dark furniture oil you already have the CN product, simply avoiding regular shellac! The shelf a great barrier coat and wash coat, lacquer works well over it now!!!!! Stain on raw pine shellac, two coats of non-dewaxed shellac is still off-gassing you. Clear shellac on a coat of Zinsser amber shellac and two topcoats of polyurethane over shellac! A real 1920s house can I keep that Zinsser liquid shellac on most us! Darken it a a final finish and slightly blotched it in an “ unideal ” environment on pine we. Lots of woodwork but little finishing other then lacquer so this is fast! Grain, and let them sit for a couple of spots on the to! Buy at Wally World the do not poly after shellac notion has come from in the process of out. Style home, so refinishing them is not subject to extensive ware (... Scratch resistance I want can imagine process or approximately 100,000 s.f of yet I!